Sunday, December 22, 2013

Mary of Nazareth As The Bible Defines Her

This study seeks to present from God's Holy Word what the Bible teaches about Mary of Nazareth, the young Jewish virgin that bore the Messiah, the Savior of the World. In this study we will seek to look at EVERY Bible verse found in the Holy Scriptures that pertains to Mary of Nazareth. Be sure to check out all the links for this study, for they will provide a deeper perspective into the person of Mary.
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Introduction
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In beginning this study, the clarifying statement should be made that the Bible, God’s infallible (reliable) and immaculate (perfect) Word, is the FINAL AUTHORITY when it comes to ALL matters pertaining to the truth of Christianity, which includes Mary (2 Peter 1:20-21; 2 Timothy 3:16).

The Lord Jesus Christ gave countless warnings to BEWARE false teachers and false teachings. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man DECEIVE YOU (Gospel of Saint Matthew 24:4).

Saint Paul also warned us to BEWARE of false teachings and fables. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables (2 Timothy 4:2-4).

Many dear, sincere people trust for their eternal destiny in observing "Christian traditions," performing "good works" and having a "denominational upbringing" instead of BELIEVING and TRUSTING the Word of Almighty God (2 Tim. 3:14-4:5). The Lord Jesus issued serious warnings about practicing the vain traditions of men instead of holding to the sound eternal absolutes and spiritual laws found in Almighty God's Holy Word (St. Matt. 7:21-23).

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition (St. Mark 7:7-9).

Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (St. Matthew 15:6b-9).

We also read in God's Word about the positive example of the Bereans. They (The Bereans)received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed" (Acts 17:11b-12a).
Again, God's Word is the ABSOLUTE FINAL authority when it comes to any subject or teaching found in Christianity. The Bible states in regard to God's Word: For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven (Psalm 119:89).
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Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth forever (Psalm 119:160). Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (St. Matthew 24:35).

For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe (1 Thess. 2:13).

He that is of God heareth God's words (St. John 8:47). May it be your sincere desire not to allow your own feelings to cloud your reason regarding this very delicate subject relating to Mary of Nazareth. By having faith in Almighty God (Heb. 11:6), i.e., by believing on God and His Word, may the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth (St. John 16:12-13). Whatever your thoughts, traditions or teachings about Mary (or Miriam in the Hebrew) of Nazareth, they MUST be defined by and align themselves with the Holy Scriptures. Again, the objective of this study is to present what God's Holy Word, the Bible, teaches about Mary of Nazareth.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17).

The Humanity of Mary

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he hath regarded the low estate (to look with pity on her vile condition) of his handmaiden (slave): for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation (St. Luke 1:45-49).

Mary offered a burnt offering and a sin offering for an atonement after her purification (Leviticus 12:1-8). And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord; (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;) And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons (St. Luke 2:22-24).
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These passages reveal that Mary was a sinner in need of a Savior!

The Use of the Term "Woman" by the Lord Jesus in Regard to Mary

Nowhere in the New Testament is there found the occasion where the Lord Jesus called His "human" mother Mary, "Mother." We only find that He called her "Woman" (St. John 2:1-4; 19:25-27). There are distinctions given by the Gospel writers (2 Peter 1:20-21) that reveal Mary as the mother of Jesus’ human nature, but again the term "mother" was never used by Jesus when addressing Mary. We have absolutely NO record of that. Mary was a created being and the Lord Jesus was the Eternal Creator (St. John 1:1-3; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:1-3). This practice was not belittling to motherhood in general or derogatory to Mary herself in any way, shape or form. The Lord Jesus was helping Mary to understand that the Son of her womb was actually the Son of the Highest sent from Heaven above (St. John 1:1-14; Isaiah 9:6; Micah 5:2). Mary had only given birth to PROVIDE a human body to house the Eternal Person of the Son of God for His great mission here on planet earth (St. John 1:14; Heb. 2:14-15; 10:5, 12:1-3).
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Image Example:
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Jesus was (and is) the Perfect Son of God (St. John 1:1-3), God in the flesh (St. John 1:14) and the Savior of the World - including all humanity and even Mary (St. Luke 1:45-49). This title of "woman" was a constant reminder to and for Mary (Miriam) that Jesus was absolutely different and holy (perfect and set apart). Jesus was not like any of her other children or any other of Adam's IMPERFECT fallen race (St. Luke 1:31-32; Rom. 5:12-19). He was the PERFECT Son of Almighty God dwelling in a PERFECT human body (St. John 8:46; 1 Peter 3:18). The heavenly assignment given to Mary by Almighty God would not be an easy one, as the Holy Scriptures tell us.
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And all they that heard it wondered at those things which were told them by the shepherds. But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart (St. Luke 2:18-19).

And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed (St. Luke 2:34-35).

And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business? And they understood not the saying which he spoke unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart (St. Luke 2:48-51).

And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother (Mark 3:35).

Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home(St. John 19:25-27).
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(This last passage is pertinent to understanding why Jesus used the term "woman" when addressing Mary, i.e., to communicate that his relationship with his earthly mother would not be permanent, only temporary.)

The Virgin-Born Birth of The Savior of the World
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And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy (Lucifer's) seed and her (Eve's, later Mary's) seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel (Genesis 3:13-15).

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14).

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us (St. Matthew 1:20-23).

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:31-35).
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But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law (Gal 4:4).
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Almighty God (the Father) BYPASSED the seed of fallen man by the POWER and OVERSHADOWING of the Holy Spirit (St. Luke 1:35). This Divine action PREVENTED the fallen traits and corruption of Adam's FALLEN race (Gen. 5:3; Romans 3:23; 5:12-19) from CONTAMINATING the PERFECT housing (body of flesh) for the Person of the Son of God to tangibly dwell here on planet earth (Micah 5:2; St. Luke 1:35; St. John 1:14; Heb. 10:5; 1 Peter 1:19).
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Image Example:
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The Lord Jesus (The Son of Almighty God). - Click for link
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Adam's fallen race which included Mary (Romans 5:12-19). - Click for link
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The Non-Perpetual Virginity of Mary after the Lord Jesus' Birth
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Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together (i.e., had intimate physical relations), she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily. But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not (refers to sexual intimacy of the God-ordained marital union) till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS (St. Matthew 1:18-25).

And she brought forth her firstborn (implies the first with more following after) son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn (St. Luke 2:7).

Mary and Joseph's Children

I am become a stranger to my brothers, and an alien to my mother's children (Psalm 69:8).
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And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence. And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works? Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? (Matthew 13:53-55).
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“When the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him” (St. Mark 6:1-3).

After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days (St. John 2:12).
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His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world. For neither did his brethren believe in him. Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come (St. John 7:3-8).

And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren (Acts 1:13-14).

There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother (St. Mark 3:31-35).

And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid (St. Mark 15:47).

And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him (St. Mark 16:1).

Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s children. When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus’ disciple: He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus (Matthew 27:56-58).

Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother (Galatians 1:19).

Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied (St. Jude 1:1-2).

The Book of James and the Book of Jude were written by the half-brothers of Jesus, i.e., Mary’s children fathered by Joseph. Also, James the half-brother of Jesus was one of the early leaders of the Church at Jerusalem (Acts 15:13-21).

Mary's Life after the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ
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During the crucifixion of Christ on the cross, John is given guardianship of Mary and her family by her firstborn son, Jesus.

Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home (St. John 19:26-27).

"Mary and her family were present with the disciples at Pentecost and were also included with the Church at Jerusalem."
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And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. (Acts 1:13, 14)

NOTE: All words in bold print in the following section refer directly to the disciples (including Mary).

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord (including Mary) in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance (Acts 2:1-4).
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And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved (Acts 2:42-47).

"Mary died in Christ and shall be changed at Christ's coming for the Church at the Rapture" - Link

NOTE: All words in bold print in the following section refer to "church age" believers (including Mary).

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:51-57).

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons (children) of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons (children) of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure (1 John 3:1-3).

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever (Revelation 22:1-5).

Conclusion

The Scripture verses presented here consisted of ALL the scripture verses that mention Mary of Nazareth. The many traditions of Mary - her intercessory prayers, her immaculate birth and sinless life (or state of perfection), her perpetual virginity, her ascension into Heaven, her immaculate heart, etc. are NOWHERE TO BE FOUND in the Holy Scriptures. Relatively speaking, very little is mentioned about Mary in the New Testament. These false doctrines, teachings, fables and traditions passed down through the centuries have originated and been enlarged upon by the traditions of men and the Catholic Church. These fables were not given by Almighty God. In fact, these teachings contradict the Holy Scriptures and its divine authority. They are at the very heart of Satanic lies and deception.

To again clarify, this study was not done to belittle any one's personal beliefs, but only to expose the heretical falsehoods pertaining to the church traditions and teachings of Mary of Nazareth. It is our deepest desire to encourage people to BELIEVE the Holy Scriptures and to REJECT any teachings and traditions of men which contradict the Holy Scriptures. May it be your sincere desire to acknowledge Mary as she is; a wonderful and faithful servant of Almighty God (Luke 1:28). As the Second Person of the Triune Godhead, may Jesus Christ ONLY be exalted and lifted up in our hearts and lives.

St. Peter stated in 2 Peter 1: 20-21: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. And St. Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 3:12-17: Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

The Bible, God’s infallible and immaculate Word, is the ABSOLUTE and FINAL AUTHORITY for all matters relating to spiritual truth (doctrine) about God, Jesus, sin, salvation, Mary, etc. May it be your sincere desire to be governed by the Holy Scriptures and NOT the traditions of men (St. Matt. 15; St. Mark 7). The true (Biblical) Mary would surely want you to!.
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The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!

DJP I.F.
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Edited by BEL I.F.

The One I though I Knew - My brief personal testimony

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14 comments:

gibby62 said...

Thank you for this wonderful and truth filled study.

Have you seen Joseph Herrin's study on Syncretism (there's about 8 parts)? http://parablesblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/syncretism.html

Seems many are pointing out the heresies of the current organized Christian religion.

The Ignorant Fishermen said...

gibby 62, Thanks. i just want to encourage everyone to let God be God and let the Holy Scriptures be the Holy Scriptures! When we do that we usually get hammered.

Thanks!
God Bless

paladin said...

Er... one question:

If you're claiming that the Bible (which is certainly inspired by God, and beneficial) is the "absolute and final authority" for all salvific matters--in essence, saying that "if it's not in the Bible, don't follow it" (a.k.a. "sola Scriptura")--can you tell me where the Bible teaches such an idea? If the idea isn't in the Bible, then "sola Scriptura" requires that one shouldn't follow it, right?

The Ignorant Fishermen said...

Thanks for your reply! From your wording you must NOT believe it to be/say so. If it(the Bible) did, the majority of what you have trusted in your whole life would go up in smoke. I do not doubt your true sincerity but as you may recall Saul (Paul) was also sincere, zealous for “God’s Law” and dead wrong…. In God’s mercy and grace … the risen Lord met Saul and confronted him in grace and mercy. That zealous man turned his heart to the Lord in TRUTH and the world has never been the same. Paul was God’s penman for most of the New Testament and he never taught about Mary.


All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16).

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away (St. Mark 13:31).

Sanctify (set them apart/ make holy) them in the truth: thy WORD is truth St. John 17:17).

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book (Rev 22:18,19) The last book of the Book.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears And they shall turn away their ears from the TRUTH (John 17:17), and shall be turned unto fables (2 Tim 4:3-4).

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (St. Matt 15:3,8-9).

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed (Gal 1:8-9.
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Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (2 St. Peter 2:20-21)

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numb 23:19)

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it (Isaiah 55:11).

and countless others. My dear friend let go of your traditions and place your trust solely in God’s infallible Word and the Christ of Holy Scripture. That is where true assurance is found.

And ye shall know (Greek 1097 -by application of God’s Word) the truth, and the truth shall make you free! If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed (St. John 8:32,36).

DJP I.F.

paladin said...

Hi, DJP,

You wrote:

Thanks for your reply! From your wording you must NOT believe it to be/say so.

If you're referring to the idea that I don't find "sola Scriptura" (in the sense of "if something which pertains to faith and morals is not in the Bible, don't trust it") to be in the Bible, then yes... that's true.

If it(the Bible) did, the majority of what you have trusted in your whole life would go up in smoke.

Ahm... :) ...with all due respect: how do you get that? My knowledge of the "lack of sola Scripura in the Bible" is rather recent; it's not at all something "in which I've trusted for my whole life". I may not quite fit the stereotype of what you might have in mind, friend...

I do not doubt your true sincerity

Please know that I feel the same, toward you! I certainly don't have any animus against you (you seem like a very nice fellow); this is a tactical point of "objective truth" which I'd like to get quite clear.

but as you may recall Saul (Paul) was also sincere, zealous for “God’s Law” and dead wrong.

Absolutely. That's one of the reasons why sane reason and logic--and not mere sentiments, habits, or "feelings"--should be used (in conjunction with Divine Revelation, of course) to discover truth.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16).

Absolutely true.

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away (St. Mark 13:31).

Right, again.

Sanctify (set them apart/ make holy) them in the truth: thy WORD is truth St. John 17:17).

Again, very true.

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book (Rev 22:18,19) The last book of the Book.

Again, true... but half a moment, here. I have some sincere questions about (what I take to be) your interpretation of this:

Continued in Part II...

paladin said...

Hi, again, DJP,

(Sorry about breaking the comment... the silly "Paladin Limit" get sin the way of these long comments!

1) Are you somehow under the impression that I've added to the text of the Book of Revelation? I assure you, I haven't; aside from some minor translation errors, your text is fundamentally the same as mine. So--unless you mean "added" in some broader and metaphorical sense--this wouldn't seem to mean "sola Scriptura". (Even if it were to mean exactly what you presume: wouldn't it mean that only the Book of Revelation is necessary? It only mentions itself, after all...) The text of Revelation says nothing at all about "following Scripture (i.e. the Bible) alone"; so long as no one adds to the Book of Revelation (i.e. inserts their own words, trying to pawn it off as true Scripture) or subtracts from the Book of Revelation, you'd be hard-pressed to say that the warning was applicable at all.

2) In fact: your (apparent) view would cause some rather awkward problems for Protestants who use the 66-book canon of Scripture, rather than the full 73-book Bible. The 73-book Bible (translated from the Greek Septuagint--which was in use in Our Blessed Lord Jesus' time, and from which He quoted many times--was used for well over a millenium, before Luther, et al., removed 7 books and parts of several others (and seriously considered the removal of four others... including the Books of James, Hebrews, Jude, and--ironically enough--the Book of Revelation!).

3) Your play on words ("last book of the Book") is clever, but don't you see that "the Book" (i.e. the Bible) hadn't yet been compiled, by the time St. John wrote these words in the Apocalypse? There were plenty of books which were "in the running" as "canonical" (i.e. inspired Scripture)--including the Didache, the "Shepherd" (of Hermas), and many books which were nowhere near as wholesome as these. The curse/warning at the end of the Book of Revelation simply couldn't have applied to "the Bible", since the final canon of Scripture wasn't settled definitively until the end of the 4th century (at the Councils of Hippo and Carthage)... or, arguably, until the 16th century (at the Council of Trent).

4) Are you somehow under the impression that belief in things other than "the prophecy of the book [the Greek really reads "scroll"--especially since "books" such as we have weren't used in that time, and in that place]" is somehow "adding to the prophecy"? Our belief that abortion is murder, for example, is nowhere to be found in the exact text of Scripture--nor is our belief that human cloning is wrong, and so on. But are we forbidden from holding these views simply because they're "extra-Biblical"? I would suggest that it's perfectly permissible to hold views which: (a) can be logically *deduced* from Scripture, or (b) are contained in the Sacred Tradition handed down to us:

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle." (2 Thessalonians 2:14)

"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you." (1 Corinthians 11:2)

Apparently, some traditions are good, and some are bad. We can't simply throw them out, wholesale; we can't throw the baby out with the bath-water.

Continued in part III...

paladin said...

Part III:

5) We have the inerrant testimony of St. John, in his Gospel, that there is an immense number of things that Jesus said and did, which is NOT recorded in that Gospel:

"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written." (John 21:25)

Since the rest of the Bible did not fill the world, we can assume that the Bible doesn't include all of what St. John references. Thus, it's perfectly reasonable to allow for the idea that some of Jesus' message came down through oral tradition--while still being preserved inerrant by the Holy Spirit.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears And they shall turn away their ears from the TRUTH (John 17:17), and shall be turned unto fables (2 Tim 4:3-4).

Absolutely true, and prescient. I would add that the definition of "sound doctrine" needs to be firmed up, though; Catholics, for example, think that this Scripture is an indictment of Protestant doctrines, you know...

(I don't mention that to be antagonistic--honestly; I mention that only to show you that the Scripture in question doesn't support your case.)

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition. This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (St. Matt 15:3,8-9).

Right... and all commandments of men which are contrary to the Word of God (whether handed down by word of mouth, or in writing--as St. Paul says in 2 Thes 2:14) should be rejected; but all Tradition which is set down by God Himself should be followed.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed (Gal 1:8-9.)

Definitely. If any doctrine truly contradicts Divine Revelation (whether oral or written), it is to be rejected utterly.

Continued in part IV...

paladin said...

Part V (last):

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost (2 St. Peter 2:20-21)

Right. I'd add, as a side note, that your quote of this passage is ironic: since non-Catholics often rely on "personal interpretation" of Scripture. St. Peter warns against this in the strongest terms:

"And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15-16)

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numb 23:19)

Right. But one can believe every last bit of Scripture, and yet not believe that Scripture ALONE is mandated. Right?

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it (Isaiah 55:11).

Of course. But see above.

and countless others. My dear friend let go of your traditions and place your trust solely in God’s infallible Word and the Christ of Holy Scripture. That is where true assurance is found.

As I mentioned earlier: I fully trust in your good heart and sincerity; but I do assert that you're mistaken in your understanding of God's Holy Word. Every last scrap of your commentary (good though it is) supports the VALUE of the Scriptures--which I never denied, and never (God willing) will deny; but not one line of it demonstrated any reason to follow the Luther-esque idea of "Scripture ALONE". Surely you see that?

The "Word of God" is Jesus, Himself (John 1:1: "In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God."); it is not limited to what happens to be included in the Holy Bible (though that's precious, irreplaceable, and absolutely necessary).

paladin said...

Whoops... two typos, in the above... one minor, one embarrassing!

From part II: "(Sorry about breaking the comment... the silly "Paladin Limit" [GET SIN] the way of these long comments!)" should read "gets in", of course! (Ouch! :) )

And the last part was part IV, not part V! (Sorry... I have some sort of flu at the moment, and I'm not as careful as I might be.)

The Ignorant Fishermen said...

Wow...
Thanks for your massive reply..
Much of it well stated.. and much of it wrong.. I love the passion though.. to write all that you were moved and motivate...

I stated my position and we have a huge disagreement.. Give me about a week and I'll try to comment on your statements.

Thanks "DJP"


2 Tim 2:23

paladin said...

Hi, DJP,

No worries... take your time; write when you can. I certainly understand busy-ness!

You wrote:

Thanks for your massive reply..
Much of it well stated.. and much of it wrong.


:) Well... I hope you'll forgive me for withholding judgment on that claim, for the time being...

paladin said...

Hi, DJP,

Any progress on our topic/discussion?

Anonymous said...

Mary....mmmn think you talking abouta jewish woman named miriam. The church age, what church age. Since christs resurrection this 'world has in no way changed its just had violent despotic rulers and kings and Popes of course who claim to come in the name of christianity but represent everything but.
Church age, The Rapture LOLOLOLOLOL, ignorant you are sir, oh and I bet your american too, ( usualy the two go together)

paladin said...

Anonymous wrote:

Mary....mmmn think you talking abouta jewish woman named miriam.

Of course. Are you quibbling about a translation of her name into English? Odd of you to do that...

The church age, what church age.

(??) Pardon? Who brought up "Church age", except for you?

Since christs resurrection this 'world has in no way changed its just had violent despotic rulers and kings and Popes of course who claim to come in the name of christianity but represent everything but.

Well... do you have reasoning to support those statements, or are they your raw opinion?

Church age, The Rapture LOLOLOLOLOL, ignorant you are sir, oh and I bet your american too, ( usualy the two go together)

Do me a favour: look up "ad hominem fallacy", when you get the chance. You might also give some thought as to how "Christ-like" you've been, by mocking me for my country of origin, throwing insults without a shred of evidence, and otherwise acting like a troll.